StrenuousSpider

Aug 22 2017, 09:54 PM

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 09:34 PM

StrenuousSpider

Aug 22 2017, 09:29 PM

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 09:20 PM

How strong is Pikkon, really ?
He was fighting evenly with Cell Saga SSJ Goku, but also knocked out SPC. One could say that SPC was suppressed, since he was going to fight Goku and that Pikkon got a sneak hit.
I'm going to assume that Pikkon is SSJ CG Goku Level.

Round 1:Pikkon is stronger than Piccolo by a lot, so he'd have to power down to Piccolo's level, which is around a Cell Jr IMO.
Since they seem to be similar, I'd assume that the fusion would be quite powerful. If you go by Base Gotenks(post rosat) being as strong as SSJ3 Goku, Pikkolo, being formed of components much stronger than Goten and Trunks in their base, would logically be much stronger than Base Gotenks.
IMO you'd have a being that easily surpass Kid Buu. Still below SSJ Gotenks.

Round 2:The Potara fusion is a much better fusion than the Metamoran one.
First, Pikkon doesn't have to power down to Piccolo's level, which is a huge benefit compared to the fusion dance, and it seems that the effect is greater than the fusion dance.
It's safe to say that Pikkolo is stronger than SSJ Gotenks(Post-Rosat). I'm not sure about Super Buu, but I think that Pikkolo is below him.

Pikkon also held his own against super kaioken goku. And was stomping ssj goku so being equal to pikkon weighted is plausible but pikkon non weighted is definitely high ssj2 teir. Sneak attack or not many people have been sneak attacked and where not out for the count.

Held his own ? I don't remember.
I remember that Goku went Kaioken, and punched him into a nearby moon.The next scene shows Goku outside of kaioken.

And no, Pikkon wasn't stomping Goku. He was fighting him evenly, maybe had a slight advantage against him, but that's definitely nowhere near SSJ2 tier.
If anything, High SSJ1 tier fits more.

Pikkon had definitely surprised a suppressed SPC. Cell was going for base Goku wanting to have a good fight, but he didn't expect Pikkon to step in.

Held his own or not he took vary little damage from that hit. Pikkon was indeed beating goku. Goku was not able to win until he saw the flaw in Pikkons move which left him wide open. But i guess goku being confident that he would beat cell means nothing.

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 10:04 PM

StrenuousSpider

Aug 22 2017, 09:54 PM

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 09:34 PM

StrenuousSpider

Aug 22 2017, 09:29 PM

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 09:20 PM

How strong is Pikkon, really ?
He was fighting evenly with Cell Saga SSJ Goku, but also knocked out SPC. One could say that SPC was suppressed, since he was going to fight Goku and that Pikkon got a sneak hit.
I'm going to assume that Pikkon is SSJ CG Goku Level.

Round 1:Pikkon is stronger than Piccolo by a lot, so he'd have to power down to Piccolo's level, which is around a Cell Jr IMO.
Since they seem to be similar, I'd assume that the fusion would be quite powerful. If you go by Base Gotenks(post rosat) being as strong as SSJ3 Goku, Pikkolo, being formed of components much stronger than Goten and Trunks in their base, would logically be much stronger than Base Gotenks.
IMO you'd have a being that easily surpass Kid Buu. Still below SSJ Gotenks.

Round 2:The Potara fusion is a much better fusion than the Metamoran one.
First, Pikkon doesn't have to power down to Piccolo's level, which is a huge benefit compared to the fusion dance, and it seems that the effect is greater than the fusion dance.
It's safe to say that Pikkolo is stronger than SSJ Gotenks(Post-Rosat). I'm not sure about Super Buu, but I think that Pikkolo is below him.

Pikkon also held his own against super kaioken goku. And was stomping ssj goku so being equal to pikkon weighted is plausible but pikkon non weighted is definitely high ssj2 teir. Sneak attack or not many people have been sneak attacked and where not out for the count.

Held his own ? I don't remember.
I remember that Goku went Kaioken, and punched him into a nearby moon.The next scene shows Goku outside of kaioken.

And no, Pikkon wasn't stomping Goku. He was fighting him evenly, maybe had a slight advantage against him, but that's definitely nowhere near SSJ2 tier.
If anything, High SSJ1 tier fits more.

Pikkon had definitely surprised a suppressed SPC. Cell was going for base Goku wanting to have a good fight, but he didn't expect Pikkon to step in.

Held his own or not he took vary little damage from that hit. Pikkon was indeed beating goku. Goku was not able to win until he saw the flaw in Pikkons move which left him wide open. But i guess goku being confident that he would beat cell means nothing.

Of course, It wasn't a strong hit or anything. It was just a punch, he just used Kaioken to break free of his tornado and managed to get a hit in. Cell survived punches from the massively stronger SSJ2 Gohan, Frieza was able to endure hits from the stronger SSJ Goku.

He was beating him, I'll admit that but it wasn't in the way an SSJ2 tier character would beat SSJ1 Tier character.Pikkon was probably a little bit stronger than Goku, that coupled with far better skills due to Pikkon being a fighter for longer than Goku's life time.

If Pikkon was a Super Saiyan 2 Tier character, he would have no selled that Kamehameha. not to mention that Goku was surviving Pikkon's thunder flash attack, which was his strongest attack.

So either SSJ Goku became SSJ2 level which contradicts the series, or that Pikkon is SSJ1 Tier which is logical since nothing disproves it.

StrenuousSpider

Aug 22 2017, 10:18 PM

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 10:04 PM

StrenuousSpider

Aug 22 2017, 09:54 PM

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 09:34 PM

StrenuousSpider

Aug 22 2017, 09:29 PM

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 09:20 PM

How strong is Pikkon, really ?
He was fighting evenly with Cell Saga SSJ Goku, but also knocked out SPC. One could say that SPC was suppressed, since he was going to fight Goku and that Pikkon got a sneak hit.
I'm going to assume that Pikkon is SSJ CG Goku Level.

Round 1:Pikkon is stronger than Piccolo by a lot, so he'd have to power down to Piccolo's level, which is around a Cell Jr IMO.
Since they seem to be similar, I'd assume that the fusion would be quite powerful. If you go by Base Gotenks(post rosat) being as strong as SSJ3 Goku, Pikkolo, being formed of components much stronger than Goten and Trunks in their base, would logically be much stronger than Base Gotenks.
IMO you'd have a being that easily surpass Kid Buu. Still below SSJ Gotenks.

Round 2:The Potara fusion is a much better fusion than the Metamoran one.
First, Pikkon doesn't have to power down to Piccolo's level, which is a huge benefit compared to the fusion dance, and it seems that the effect is greater than the fusion dance.
It's safe to say that Pikkolo is stronger than SSJ Gotenks(Post-Rosat). I'm not sure about Super Buu, but I think that Pikkolo is below him.

Pikkon also held his own against super kaioken goku. And was stomping ssj goku so being equal to pikkon weighted is plausible but pikkon non weighted is definitely high ssj2 teir. Sneak attack or not many people have been sneak attacked and where not out for the count.

Held his own ? I don't remember.
I remember that Goku went Kaioken, and punched him into a nearby moon.The next scene shows Goku outside of kaioken.

And no, Pikkon wasn't stomping Goku. He was fighting him evenly, maybe had a slight advantage against him, but that's definitely nowhere near SSJ2 tier.
If anything, High SSJ1 tier fits more.

Pikkon had definitely surprised a suppressed SPC. Cell was going for base Goku wanting to have a good fight, but he didn't expect Pikkon to step in.

Held his own or not he took vary little damage from that hit. Pikkon was indeed beating goku. Goku was not able to win until he saw the flaw in Pikkons move which left him wide open. But i guess goku being confident that he would beat cell means nothing.

Of course, It wasn't a strong hit or anything. It was just a punch, he just used Kaioken to break free of his tornado and managed to get a hit in. Cell survived punches from the massively stronger SSJ2 Gohan, Frieza was able to endure hits from the stronger SSJ Goku.

He was beating him, I'll admit that but it wasn't in the way an SSJ2 tier character would beat SSJ1 Tier character.Pikkon was probably a little bit stronger than Goku, that coupled with far better skills due to Pikkon being a fighter for longer than Goku's life time.

If Pikkon was a Super Saiyan 2 Tier character, he would have no selled that Kamehameha. not to mention that Goku was surviving Pikkon's thunder flash attack, which was his strongest attack.

So either SSJ Goku became SSJ2 level which contradicts the series, or that Pikkon is SSJ1 Tier which is logical since nothing disproves it.

Filler says goku was going to beat cell. Filler says ssj goku > ultimate gohan. Non filler says kid buu > buuhan. So tell me again about contradictory sceans.

Hell goku dose not even go ssj when cell rushed him. Pikkon hits him with that attack which flung cell into the air then chops him away. Nothing says he is ssj teir.

No ssj teir can beat a ssj2 teir in two hits sneak attack or not. Cell was even still awake after the two hits. If he was truly stronger then pikkon why not power up to full power and smash him.

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 10:28 PM

StrenuousSpider

Aug 22 2017, 10:18 PM

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 10:04 PM

StrenuousSpider

Aug 22 2017, 09:54 PM

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 09:34 PM

StrenuousSpider

Aug 22 2017, 09:29 PM

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 09:20 PM

How strong is Pikkon, really ?
He was fighting evenly with Cell Saga SSJ Goku, but also knocked out SPC. One could say that SPC was suppressed, since he was going to fight Goku and that Pikkon got a sneak hit.
I'm going to assume that Pikkon is SSJ CG Goku Level.

Round 1:Pikkon is stronger than Piccolo by a lot, so he'd have to power down to Piccolo's level, which is around a Cell Jr IMO.
Since they seem to be similar, I'd assume that the fusion would be quite powerful. If you go by Base Gotenks(post rosat) being as strong as SSJ3 Goku, Pikkolo, being formed of components much stronger than Goten and Trunks in their base, would logically be much stronger than Base Gotenks.
IMO you'd have a being that easily surpass Kid Buu. Still below SSJ Gotenks.

Round 2:The Potara fusion is a much better fusion than the Metamoran one.
First, Pikkon doesn't have to power down to Piccolo's level, which is a huge benefit compared to the fusion dance, and it seems that the effect is greater than the fusion dance.
It's safe to say that Pikkolo is stronger than SSJ Gotenks(Post-Rosat). I'm not sure about Super Buu, but I think that Pikkolo is below him.

Pikkon also held his own against super kaioken goku. And was stomping ssj goku so being equal to pikkon weighted is plausible but pikkon non weighted is definitely high ssj2 teir. Sneak attack or not many people have been sneak attacked and where not out for the count.

Held his own ? I don't remember.
I remember that Goku went Kaioken, and punched him into a nearby moon.The next scene shows Goku outside of kaioken.

And no, Pikkon wasn't stomping Goku. He was fighting him evenly, maybe had a slight advantage against him, but that's definitely nowhere near SSJ2 tier.
If anything, High SSJ1 tier fits more.

Pikkon had definitely surprised a suppressed SPC. Cell was going for base Goku wanting to have a good fight, but he didn't expect Pikkon to step in.

Held his own or not he took vary little damage from that hit. Pikkon was indeed beating goku. Goku was not able to win until he saw the flaw in Pikkons move which left him wide open. But i guess goku being confident that he would beat cell means nothing.

Of course, It wasn't a strong hit or anything. It was just a punch, he just used Kaioken to break free of his tornado and managed to get a hit in. Cell survived punches from the massively stronger SSJ2 Gohan, Frieza was able to endure hits from the stronger SSJ Goku.

He was beating him, I'll admit that but it wasn't in the way an SSJ2 tier character would beat SSJ1 Tier character.Pikkon was probably a little bit stronger than Goku, that coupled with far better skills due to Pikkon being a fighter for longer than Goku's life time.

If Pikkon was a Super Saiyan 2 Tier character, he would have no selled that Kamehameha. not to mention that Goku was surviving Pikkon's thunder flash attack, which was his strongest attack.

So either SSJ Goku became SSJ2 level which contradicts the series, or that Pikkon is SSJ1 Tier which is logical since nothing disproves it.

Filler says goku was going to beat cell. Filler says ssj goku > ultimate gohan. Non filler says kid buu > buuhan. So tell me again about contradictory sceans.

Hell goku dose not even go ssj when cell rushed him. Pikkon hits him with that attack which flung cell into the air then chops him away. Nothing says he is ssj teir.

No ssj teir can beat a ssj2 teir in two hits sneak attack or not. Cell was even still awake after the two hits. If he was truly stronger then pikkon why not power up to full power and smash him.

So the otherworld tournament happens before the buu saga, right ?
Majin Vegeta (in both the manga, and anime mind you) has been stated to barely surpass SSJ2 Gohan. Given that SSJ2 Buu Saga Goku is equal to Majin Vegeta, that means that SSJ2 Goku is barely above SSJ2 Gohan and by extension Super Perfect Cell.
SSJ2 Goku/Majin Vegeta -> Super Perfect Cell >=< SSJ2 Gohan

SSJ2 Goku is 2x SSJ Buu saga Goku, who is stronger than Otherworld tournament SSJ Goku.

Pikkon wasn't dominating SSJ Goku, he was a bit stronger yeah but he wasn't that much stronger. it was an even fight.
So it's either SSJ Goku became as strong as SSJ2 Gohan which is ridiculous as I pointed out, or that Pikkon is barely above SSJ Goku which is the most logical.

and Goku wasn't SSJ when Cell came rushing. Goku did that against the ginyu force. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't need to go SSJ against them.
So cell came up to him, wanting a good fight(since he is stronger than him, he'd suppress his power to have a great fight), Pikkon comes out unexpectedly, surprises Suppressed Cell and hits him. That's all to it.

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 10:44 PM

OK, so then SSJ Goku, no base Goku > SPC ?
That's ridiculous, even for filler.

And yes, Cell was awake...at the bottom of the lake. He didn't even have time before he left before Pikkon used his tornado. I don't see how it implies Pikkon > Cell.

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 10:53 PM

The problem is, Goku contradicts all of that.

Goku in the otherworld is weaker than the one in the buu saga, that has barely surpassed Gohan in the cell games.
SSJ Goku surpassing Ultimate Gohan has no bearing on this debate. It happened way later.

Notaka

Aug 22 2017, 11:07 PM

The problem is, Pikkon doesn't have anything that cements him as SSJ2 tier, except knocking out a seemingly suppressed Cell. He was barely stronger than SSJ Goku that is weaker than the one in the Buu Saga.

Filler or not, the otherworld tournament still happened before the Buu Saga. It makes no sense for Goku to get weaker despite him stating in the anime that he was training hard for 7 years.

Most logical is that Pikkon is barely stronger than SSJ Goku and let's leave it at that.